1 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:08,990 on this episode of skeptical you've 2 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:11,250 looked at these people square in the eye 3 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:13,590 you know you sat in the seance session 4 00:00:18,710 --> 00:00:16,320 and not that you're infallible or can't 5 00:00:20,390 --> 00:00:18,720 be fooled at all but that I think the 6 00:00:22,700 --> 00:00:20,400 journalists in that position is somebody 7 00:00:24,620 --> 00:00:22,710 I kind of trust more even though I did 8 00:00:27,230 --> 00:00:24,630 have my own personal experiences which 9 00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:27,240 really affected me at the same time I 10 00:00:31,939 --> 00:00:29,789 remained in the role of a journalist as 11 00:00:34,190 --> 00:00:31,949 you know and I would even analyze my own 12 00:00:36,799 --> 00:00:34,200 experiences that way of course there 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:36,809 were lots of things I read and people I 14 00:00:40,639 --> 00:00:39,090 spoke to that we're not included in the 15 00:00:43,190 --> 00:00:40,649 book I mean you spend a lot of time 16 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:43,200 dealing with material that you you 17 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:44,820 aren't gonna use for one reason or 18 00:00:50,450 --> 00:00:45,530 another 19 00:00:50,460 --> 00:00:57,780 [Music] 20 00:01:02,139 --> 00:01:00,250 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 21 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:02,149 controversial science and spirituality 22 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:04,640 with leading researchers thinkers and 23 00:01:08,980 --> 00:01:07,040 their critics today's guest is a really 24 00:01:10,899 --> 00:01:08,990 good one but I feel it needs a little 25 00:01:13,030 --> 00:01:10,909 bit of a background maybe it doesn't 26 00:01:15,190 --> 00:01:13,040 maybe it does I don't know 27 00:01:17,380 --> 00:01:15,200 today's guest is Leslie Cain and a few 28 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:17,390 years ago she made quite a splash with 29 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:20,360 her book about UFOs and the book was 30 00:01:24,820 --> 00:01:22,610 really interesting because Leslie is 31 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:24,830 very mainstream mainstream journalists 32 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:27,290 all the credentials so when she turned 33 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:29,420 her eye to UFOs and she published this 34 00:01:34,779 --> 00:01:32,450 book it really drew a lot of people into 35 00:01:37,990 --> 00:01:34,789 that field that weren't in it before it 36 00:01:39,580 --> 00:01:38,000 legitimized it in a way at the same time 37 00:01:41,650 --> 00:01:39,590 there are a lot of people in the UFO 38 00:01:42,999 --> 00:01:41,660 community who were kind of pointing at 39 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:43,009 the book going hey wait a minute we've 40 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:44,810 known about this for the longest time 41 00:01:47,710 --> 00:01:46,130 all this stuff has been out there 42 00:01:50,649 --> 00:01:47,720 everyone's talked about it everything's 43 00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:50,659 been said about it so the kind of 44 00:01:56,710 --> 00:01:53,630 interesting backstory here is how do 45 00:01:58,180 --> 00:01:56,720 these controversial issues move forward 46 00:02:00,550 --> 00:01:58,190 and what brings people from the outside 47 00:02:02,499 --> 00:02:00,560 of an issue like if you're outside of 48 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:02,509 near-death experience or you're outside 49 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:06,170 of UFOs and then what brings you to 50 00:02:09,999 --> 00:02:08,209 saying hey you know what maybe I need to 51 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:10,009 really look at that maybe that's 52 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:13,040 something serious and that's what I 53 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:15,110 think Leslie brings to this she 54 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:17,290 certainly brought that to the UFO issue 55 00:02:22,420 --> 00:02:20,030 unquestionably she opened up the field 56 00:02:24,729 --> 00:02:22,430 and legitimized the field in a way that 57 00:02:27,490 --> 00:02:24,739 was really unique in powerful so I think 58 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:27,500 the exciting thing about her new book is 59 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:30,620 to wonder whether or not the same thing 60 00:02:36,039 --> 00:02:33,350 will happen for the survival of death 61 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:36,049 issue and the issue of consciousness and 62 00:02:40,750 --> 00:02:37,970 extended consciousness and consciousness 63 00:02:42,849 --> 00:02:40,760 after death and sigh consciousness and 64 00:02:45,009 --> 00:02:42,859 all the other stuff that we talked so 65 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:45,019 much about on skeptic oh so it was 66 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:46,910 really exciting to talk to her I think 67 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:49,310 her book is really important I hope it 68 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:51,769 turns out to be really important because 69 00:02:56,590 --> 00:02:54,049 as we all know there's a long way to go 70 00:02:59,560 --> 00:02:56,600 in terms of changing the paradigm that 71 00:03:02,530 --> 00:02:59,570 we're in regarding consciousness here's 72 00:03:05,020 --> 00:03:02,540 my interview with Leslie Cain today we 73 00:03:06,699 --> 00:03:05,030 welcome Leslie Cain to skeptic Oh Leslie 74 00:03:09,189 --> 00:03:06,709 is an investigative journalist with a 75 00:03:09,910 --> 00:03:09,199 long list of credits from many many 76 00:03:12,610 --> 00:03:09,920 major 77 00:03:15,010 --> 00:03:12,620 news outlets but you may also know and 78 00:03:18,670 --> 00:03:15,020 remember her from her 2010 New York 79 00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:18,680 Times bestseller UFOs generals pilots 80 00:03:23,710 --> 00:03:20,840 and government officials go on the 81 00:03:27,699 --> 00:03:23,720 record a book that drew quite a bit of 82 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:27,709 attention and now well she's back with 83 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:30,350 another thumb to the eye of conventional 84 00:03:35,759 --> 00:03:33,350 paradigms she has a new book out titled 85 00:03:38,729 --> 00:03:35,769 surviving death a journalist 86 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:38,739 investigates evidence of an afterlife 87 00:03:44,259 --> 00:03:41,750 Leslie welcome to skeptic oh thank you 88 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:44,269 so much for joining me well thanks for 89 00:03:48,970 --> 00:03:46,130 having me Alex I'm really pleased to be 90 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:48,980 on your show it is a great fit I have to 91 00:03:54,490 --> 00:03:51,560 tell you and tell listeners that you 92 00:03:56,460 --> 00:03:54,500 know this book is literally a must read 93 00:03:58,660 --> 00:03:56,470 for anyone who's listened to the 94 00:04:00,940 --> 00:03:58,670 literally hundreds of shows we've done 95 00:04:03,130 --> 00:04:00,950 on the topic of consciousness and what 96 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:03,140 lies beyond this kind of goofy mind 97 00:04:08,949 --> 00:04:05,930 equal brain silliness that science has a 98 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:08,959 stuck in so you know we're going to talk 99 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:10,580 a lot about the book but just real 100 00:04:16,150 --> 00:04:13,580 quickly what I thought was really 101 00:04:19,569 --> 00:04:16,160 interesting and unique is how you kind 102 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:19,579 of synthesize together a bunch of stuff 103 00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:22,810 that a lot of people have covered maybe 104 00:04:27,730 --> 00:04:25,520 separately but not together so in the 105 00:04:29,980 --> 00:04:27,740 ease but it's not just about that it's 106 00:04:33,310 --> 00:04:29,990 about mediums it's about sigh but all 107 00:04:36,580 --> 00:04:33,320 pointing towards this same thing of you 108 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:36,590 know survival hypothesis and afterlife 109 00:04:41,650 --> 00:04:39,289 so you really be congratulated for that 110 00:04:43,510 --> 00:04:41,660 great job well thanks a lot I mean that 111 00:04:45,460 --> 00:04:43,520 that was actually my intention was sort 112 00:04:47,409 --> 00:04:45,470 of to show how the very very best 113 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:47,419 evidence if you want to call it evidence 114 00:04:51,070 --> 00:04:49,430 or data kind of synthesizes on all 115 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:51,080 points in the same direction and how 116 00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:53,570 things interconnect because so often you 117 00:04:59,230 --> 00:04:55,910 know the topic is covered in just one 118 00:05:01,690 --> 00:04:59,240 area at a time so as a journalist I sort 119 00:05:05,010 --> 00:05:01,700 of wanted to provide an overview of the 120 00:05:07,029 --> 00:05:05,020 key most incredibly evidential 121 00:05:09,219 --> 00:05:07,039 information that's there and there are 122 00:05:10,719 --> 00:05:09,229 connections so I think it's really 123 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:10,729 interesting to look at those connections 124 00:05:14,409 --> 00:05:12,530 you know you just mentioned the 125 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:14,419 journalist thing and I really wanted to 126 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:16,970 pick up on that because it comes through 127 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:20,240 in the book quite clearly that you pride 128 00:05:26,050 --> 00:05:23,510 yourself on your profession as you 129 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:26,060 you know I get that investigative 130 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:28,490 journalist means something at least it 131 00:05:32,830 --> 00:05:30,050 used to mean something let's hope it 132 00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:32,840 still means something in the 133 00:05:37,660 --> 00:05:34,820 introduction to this book surviving 134 00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:37,670 death you write an investigation of such 135 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:40,660 evidence has rarely been systematically 136 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:43,370 consolidated and subjected to in-depth 137 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:45,890 rigorous scrutiny by a journalist and 138 00:05:51,370 --> 00:05:48,500 then you add strict journalistic 139 00:05:53,380 --> 00:05:51,380 protocols can be applied to any topic 140 00:05:57,250 --> 00:05:53,390 for which there is data no matter how 141 00:05:59,770 --> 00:05:57,260 unusual or even indeterminate and this 142 00:06:02,620 --> 00:05:59,780 is something we can really kind of 143 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:02,630 deconstruct because you know people are 144 00:06:06,370 --> 00:06:04,130 coming at it two ways some people are 145 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:06,380 coming in and say great you know here's 146 00:06:13,390 --> 00:06:09,890 somebody who really has the journalistic 147 00:06:14,860 --> 00:06:13,400 chops to dig into a topic and wrap their 148 00:06:16,570 --> 00:06:14,870 arms around it and then there's gonna be 149 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:16,580 a another whole group of people that are 150 00:06:20,770 --> 00:06:18,980 gonna say she's a journalist what does 151 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:20,780 she know about this science stuff and 152 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:22,070 you're gonna talk about a lot of medical 153 00:06:26,470 --> 00:06:23,800 stuff in this book how is she qualified 154 00:06:28,660 --> 00:06:26,480 tell us what you think about you know 155 00:06:31,870 --> 00:06:28,670 your journalistic background and what 156 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:31,880 that brings uniquely to something like 157 00:06:36,820 --> 00:06:34,010 this or you know the UFO thing that you 158 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:36,830 had to cover as well yeah I mean there 159 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:38,600 are certain that there's there's a way 160 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:40,610 that journalism approaches topics which 161 00:06:46,090 --> 00:06:43,850 is to get information and sources that 162 00:06:47,650 --> 00:06:46,100 are extremely critical credible you want 163 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:47,660 to have multiple sources if you're 164 00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:50,030 reporting on something you want to have 165 00:06:55,060 --> 00:06:51,980 physical data you know stuff that's 166 00:06:57,190 --> 00:06:55,070 really reliable and very very highly 167 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:57,200 educated sources of information 168 00:07:01,420 --> 00:06:58,730 now you're right I can't possibly 169 00:07:03,670 --> 00:07:01,430 understand all the science but a 170 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:03,680 journalist job is not to be a scientist 171 00:07:09,430 --> 00:07:06,410 it's to report on what the scientists 172 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:09,440 say and let them say it so not only if I 173 00:07:13,090 --> 00:07:11,360 report it on what they say in this book 174 00:07:15,490 --> 00:07:13,100 but in some instances I've actually 175 00:07:17,470 --> 00:07:15,500 invited them to write their own chapters 176 00:07:20,290 --> 00:07:17,480 for the book so we have some chapters 177 00:07:22,570 --> 00:07:20,300 written by one by a famous cardiologist 178 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:22,580 another one by a psychiatrist so I 179 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:24,650 really let I did this with the UFO book 180 00:07:28,810 --> 00:07:26,930 too I love giving the experts an 181 00:07:30,790 --> 00:07:28,820 opportunity to speak to the readers 182 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:30,800 directly rather than me just quoting 183 00:07:36,730 --> 00:07:33,170 them all over the place the other thing 184 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:36,740 I feel like when I read your book is I 185 00:07:40,690 --> 00:07:37,880 feel like hey 186 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:40,700 here is a seasoned pro that's sitting 187 00:07:45,910 --> 00:07:42,980 down face to face with these people and 188 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:45,920 she's not gonna let stuff slide you know 189 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:47,690 what I mean that's the other part I'm 190 00:07:50,860 --> 00:07:48,890 getting from the investigative 191 00:07:52,660 --> 00:07:50,870 journalists part is that you know what 192 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:52,670 and you even communicate that in the 193 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:55,010 book that you've looked at these people 194 00:07:59,410 --> 00:07:57,050 square in the eye you know you sat in 195 00:08:02,470 --> 00:07:59,420 the seance session and not that you're 196 00:08:04,660 --> 00:08:02,480 infallible or can't be fooled at all but 197 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:04,670 that you know you're bringing something 198 00:08:10,390 --> 00:08:07,190 there that I think adds a certain degree 199 00:08:12,550 --> 00:08:10,400 of credibility for people like me that a 200 00:08:14,350 --> 00:08:12,560 lot of times science doesn't even do I 201 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:14,360 mean they're off in their own world of 202 00:08:20,260 --> 00:08:17,930 you know trying to impress this journal 203 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:20,270 or trying to get how third you know they 204 00:08:23,770 --> 00:08:21,710 have a different set of criteria than 205 00:08:25,570 --> 00:08:23,780 somebody I think the journalists in that 206 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:25,580 position is somebody I kind of trust 207 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:27,830 more yeah well I hope that's the case 208 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:29,810 and I really I'm glad you feel that way 209 00:08:33,550 --> 00:08:31,370 I hope it came through that way in the 210 00:08:35,589 --> 00:08:33,560 book because I certainly even though I 211 00:08:37,659 --> 00:08:35,599 did have my own personal experiences 212 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:37,669 which really affected me at the same 213 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:40,280 time I remained in the role of a 214 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:42,169 journalist as you know and I would even 215 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:44,930 analyze my own experiences that way so 216 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:46,040 yeah I think that's really really 217 00:08:50,980 --> 00:08:47,890 important and the other aspect of that 218 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:50,990 journalistic aspect is that of course 219 00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:53,510 there were lots of things I read and 220 00:08:57,130 --> 00:08:55,280 people I spoke to that we're not 221 00:08:59,740 --> 00:08:57,140 included in the book I mean you spend a 222 00:09:01,720 --> 00:08:59,750 lot of time dealing with material that 223 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:01,730 you you aren't gonna use for one reason 224 00:09:06,580 --> 00:09:04,250 or another so I do feel that I have been 225 00:09:09,250 --> 00:09:06,590 careful to try to try to scrutinize a 226 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:09,260 lot of stuff to kind of distill what I 227 00:09:13,090 --> 00:09:10,850 think is the most credible the most 228 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:13,100 important yeah you know I think that a 229 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:17,090 process is intriguing and it's important 230 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:20,000 as I was reading the book I was couldn't 231 00:09:24,820 --> 00:09:22,370 help but wonder what some of the 232 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:24,830 backstory is you know I kind of was 233 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:26,450 joking a little bit in the reduction and 234 00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:27,890 saying you know you're sticking another 235 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:29,840 thumb and the I have another paradigm 236 00:09:36,430 --> 00:09:32,870 but it's true right I mean you were kind 237 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:36,440 of all in on the UFO book and I gotta 238 00:09:42,250 --> 00:09:38,360 believe I know that you took a ton of 239 00:09:45,460 --> 00:09:42,260 heat from all sorts of people on that 240 00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:45,470 thing and you not only weathered it but 241 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:47,270 you kept coming at it I mean it wasn't 242 00:09:50,140 --> 00:09:48,530 just the book but then you were 243 00:09:51,639 --> 00:09:50,150 interested in following up on the 244 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:51,649 freedom of him from me 245 00:09:55,629 --> 00:09:54,529 and all the different things so it tell 246 00:09:57,249 --> 00:09:55,639 us a little bit about your background 247 00:09:58,869 --> 00:09:57,259 because I don't know a lot it you know 248 00:10:00,879 --> 00:09:58,879 your bio sometimes you read it and it 249 00:10:02,259 --> 00:10:00,889 sounds like you were you're placed right 250 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:02,269 in the middle of a successful 251 00:10:07,389 --> 00:10:04,730 award-winning career as an investigative 252 00:10:09,129 --> 00:10:07,399 journalist you know well what has been 253 00:10:11,319 --> 00:10:09,139 your background getting up to this point 254 00:10:13,540 --> 00:10:11,329 and up to the point of writing the the 255 00:10:17,139 --> 00:10:13,550 UFO book that was the New York Times 256 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:17,149 bestseller well I was I was when I when 257 00:10:21,489 --> 00:10:19,790 the UFO thing came into my life for a 258 00:10:23,919 --> 00:10:21,499 number of years before that I had been 259 00:10:26,470 --> 00:10:23,929 working at a public radio station in 260 00:10:29,169 --> 00:10:26,480 California was KPFA radio which is part 261 00:10:31,449 --> 00:10:29,179 of the Pacifica network and I was a host 262 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:31,459 and then on-air an on-air host and a 263 00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,290 producer for a daily investigative news 264 00:10:37,869 --> 00:10:35,600 program on that network and while I was 265 00:10:40,509 --> 00:10:37,879 working there I sort of I also was 266 00:10:42,759 --> 00:10:40,519 learning journalism I was mentored by a 267 00:10:44,350 --> 00:10:42,769 very accomplished investigative reporter 268 00:10:47,109 --> 00:10:44,360 who worked at that station we did a lot 269 00:10:48,699 --> 00:10:47,119 of writing together publishing articles 270 00:10:51,129 --> 00:10:48,709 together and that was sort of how I 271 00:10:53,439 --> 00:10:51,139 learned about journalism it was by doing 272 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:53,449 it with somebody guiding me I had been 273 00:10:57,429 --> 00:10:55,910 to Burma and I was very interested in 274 00:11:00,429 --> 00:10:57,439 the struggle for human rights in that 275 00:11:03,009 --> 00:11:00,439 country and so I kind of got my career 276 00:11:05,439 --> 00:11:03,019 in journalism going by reporting on 277 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:05,449 events that were taking place in in 278 00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:07,970 Burma so I had nothing to do with any of 279 00:11:11,949 --> 00:11:10,100 this kind of stuff but then when I was 280 00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:11,959 working at the radio station I think it 281 00:11:17,919 --> 00:11:14,809 was in 1999 a colleague in France sent 282 00:11:20,019 --> 00:11:17,929 me this report written written by a lot 283 00:11:22,329 --> 00:11:20,029 of very high-level military people in 284 00:11:24,129 --> 00:11:22,339 France called the cameto report and I 285 00:11:26,290 --> 00:11:24,139 won't go into a lot of details I don't 286 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:26,300 take up too much time but but it was 287 00:11:32,169 --> 00:11:28,730 about these high-level officials study 288 00:11:34,449 --> 00:11:32,179 of the UFO subject essentially the 289 00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:34,459 official official data official cases 290 00:11:39,819 --> 00:11:36,980 pilots and military people and the 291 00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:39,829 conclusion that they drew was this the 292 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:41,350 possibility of the extra-terrestrial 293 00:11:46,119 --> 00:11:43,610 hypothesis being valid I mean they 294 00:11:47,919 --> 00:11:46,129 actually said this is a valid hypothesis 295 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:47,929 to explain these incidences we can't 296 00:11:52,509 --> 00:11:50,240 think of any any better ways to explain 297 00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:52,519 it but we can't prove it so anyway 298 00:11:56,169 --> 00:11:54,230 that's what got me started because I 299 00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:56,179 looked at that report at Alex and I 300 00:11:59,650 --> 00:11:58,490 thought like this is huge this is a big 301 00:12:02,410 --> 00:11:59,660 news story right 302 00:12:03,789 --> 00:12:02,420 you've got high-level generals and 303 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:03,799 admirals telling us that we're being 304 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:05,610 visited by extraterrestrials 305 00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:08,160 very likely anyway and I thought you 306 00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:10,230 know what if this happen in America so I 307 00:12:14,690 --> 00:12:12,990 just grabbed this story and I wrote 308 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:14,700 about it for the Boston Globe in the 309 00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:17,250 year 2000 and that's what got me started 310 00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:20,160 on this with the UFOs and I spent over a 311 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:22,800 decade full-time on them I eventually 312 00:12:27,860 --> 00:12:25,500 left the radio station and so so that 313 00:12:29,690 --> 00:12:27,870 was sort of my first involvement with 314 00:12:32,030 --> 00:12:29,700 this sort of you know I don't think of 315 00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:32,040 UFOs as being paranormal I don't know 316 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:34,200 how you want to qualify them but 317 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:35,910 certainly something that challenges the 318 00:12:38,990 --> 00:12:37,410 paradigm and certainly something that 319 00:12:41,329 --> 00:12:39,000 science doesn't accept 320 00:12:45,769 --> 00:12:41,339 yeah but Leslie you had to be getting a 321 00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:45,779 lot of signals along the way that this 322 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:48,420 isn't necessarily the greatest career 323 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:50,850 move to go down this path because on one 324 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:53,970 hand yeah it's this huge story but a lot 325 00:12:58,579 --> 00:12:56,250 of folks have gone down there a little 326 00:13:01,160 --> 00:12:58,589 bit and said hey I just need to back off 327 00:13:03,079 --> 00:13:01,170 here this isn't going to turn out the 328 00:13:05,630 --> 00:13:03,089 way I had hoped you had to encounter 329 00:13:06,980 --> 00:13:05,640 that right yeah I mean I I was certainly 330 00:13:09,009 --> 00:13:06,990 especially in the beginning and I 331 00:13:11,060 --> 00:13:09,019 described this in my book about how 332 00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:11,070 terrifying it was really for me 333 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:13,110 professionally to write to even be 334 00:13:17,389 --> 00:13:15,510 interested in this it was only after the 335 00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:17,399 UF the story was published in The Boston 336 00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:19,500 Globe that I felt even safe enough to 337 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:21,870 tell my colleagues at this progressive 338 00:13:25,519 --> 00:13:23,640 radio station that I was interested in 339 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:25,529 the topic so there there certainly was a 340 00:13:30,139 --> 00:13:27,870 lot of ridicule that I had to deal with 341 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:30,149 but I think the other thing that kept me 342 00:13:34,699 --> 00:13:32,430 going was I had other sources of income 343 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:34,709 I wasn't a hundred percent dependent on 344 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:37,920 this from my livelihood so I think that 345 00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:40,500 if anybody was they could never I mean 346 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:42,060 maybe there's a couple of people that 347 00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:43,620 have made a career out of this but not 348 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:45,390 very many are able to do that so 349 00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:47,670 unfortunately I had that I had the 350 00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,560 opportunity to be able to focus on it 351 00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:51,360 and you know because of the approach I 352 00:13:56,300 --> 00:13:53,519 took Alex I really didn't get a lot of 353 00:13:58,759 --> 00:13:56,310 flack from the outside world about it I 354 00:14:00,650 --> 00:13:58,769 think I was taking a journalistic 355 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:00,660 approach that was fairly unique I wasn't 356 00:14:04,939 --> 00:14:02,370 drawing conclusions about what the 357 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:04,949 phenomenon was I was just focused on 358 00:14:10,579 --> 00:14:07,920 giving the data that a phenomenon exists 359 00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,589 that alone is extraordinary but the 360 00:14:13,819 --> 00:14:12,000 problem with so many people who study 361 00:14:15,769 --> 00:14:13,829 UFOs they they just jump to all these 362 00:14:18,530 --> 00:14:15,779 conclusions and they're not clear about 363 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:18,540 what's factual and what isn't well it's 364 00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:19,450 hard not to 365 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:22,030 but I think your book was the really the 366 00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:24,640 right book at the right time and I mean 367 00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:26,860 people were maybe some people in the UFO 368 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:29,260 community were clamoring for more hate 369 00:14:32,850 --> 00:14:31,000 more you know why doesn't go far enough 370 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:32,860 but when you look at it in retrospect it 371 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:35,380 was really the right book at the right 372 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:37,210 time and I wonder you know you can't I 373 00:14:41,940 --> 00:14:39,210 can't help but think if there aren't 374 00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:41,950 parallels with surviving death I mean 375 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:44,320 did you feel the same kind of parallels 376 00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:45,790 because first thing I have to point out 377 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:47,440 and you mentioned this in the book in 378 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:50,170 passing but you've had an interest in 379 00:14:56,670 --> 00:14:53,350 this survival thing for a long time too 380 00:14:58,980 --> 00:14:56,680 so was that like the UFO thing also 381 00:15:00,840 --> 00:14:58,990 something that was kind of brewing for a 382 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:00,850 while and now you felt like the time was 383 00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:03,430 right to package it in this way or what 384 00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:06,220 is the backstory for the book yeah and 385 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:08,200 just to clarify - I know the documentary 386 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:09,970 you mean about the case in Scotland I 387 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:11,380 had nothing to do with that that was a 388 00:15:16,890 --> 00:15:14,680 channel for production in the UK a very 389 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:16,900 excellent really yeah but but I was 390 00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:18,910 involved with the Vidya a documentary 391 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:20,860 that was made about what about the skull 392 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:22,630 experiments so you may be thinking of 393 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:25,210 that one well what is the one I actually 394 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:29,770 saw the picture of you and I thought it 395 00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:33,370 was Cameron the kid mm-hmm but not with 396 00:15:36,930 --> 00:15:34,900 that Jim Tucker I mean I did meet 397 00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:36,940 Cameron the kid in that movie I went up 398 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:39,070 with with a filmmaker named Tim Coleman 399 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:41,890 who is the producer of this documentary 400 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:44,500 about this the issues of survival and I 401 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:46,150 was assisting him and I went with him to 402 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:47,770 meet Cameron and his mom and his brother 403 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:49,330 so you may have seen a photograph from 404 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:52,300 that I made the wrong connection and so 405 00:15:55,830 --> 00:15:54,610 so you were aware of that story and what 406 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:55,840 was going on but you were looking at the 407 00:16:02,010 --> 00:15:58,690 skull experiments which are just 408 00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:02,020 mind-boggling as well well until folks 409 00:16:04,770 --> 00:16:03,460 cuz I'm bouncing around and talking 410 00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:04,780 about stuff that people probably aren't 411 00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:06,190 even familiar with and those are two 412 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:08,470 topics that you talk about in this book 413 00:16:12,810 --> 00:16:09,910 and you draw these connections together 414 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:12,820 one is the physical mediumship that was 415 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:15,250 demonstrated in the skull experiments 416 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:17,050 and the other is Jim Tucker does 417 00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:19,440 contribute to this book in terms of 418 00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:22,390 reincarnation so however you want to 419 00:16:26,580 --> 00:16:23,800 pick that up in terms of what's in the 420 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:26,590 book or how long that interest was there 421 00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:30,070 for you and those topics yeah I mean all 422 00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:31,720 those talks have interested me for a 423 00:16:34,650 --> 00:16:32,920 long time and 424 00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:34,660 and when I did I think it was in the 425 00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:36,940 early 2000s you know I was working on my 426 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:40,180 UFO stuff but I I knew these two 427 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:42,610 colleagues who were also involved with 428 00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:44,740 the UFO subject but they were we sir I 429 00:16:49,379 --> 00:16:46,720 sort of helped them develop a proposal 430 00:16:52,889 --> 00:16:49,389 for a documentary on this topic and in 431 00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:52,899 they ended up doing a film and I ended 432 00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:54,760 up assisting with that film so I got to 433 00:16:59,519 --> 00:16:56,980 meet a lot of the players in the field 434 00:17:02,100 --> 00:16:59,529 but I wasn't able to fully participate 435 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:02,110 because my priority was UFOs and I was 436 00:17:06,419 --> 00:17:03,880 working on the book for that and 437 00:17:08,189 --> 00:17:06,429 everything and doing a lot but this this 438 00:17:09,870 --> 00:17:08,199 subject matter has always really 439 00:17:13,289 --> 00:17:09,880 interested me it's always been sort of 440 00:17:14,549 --> 00:17:13,299 in the background of my work and you 441 00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:14,559 know I've poked around with different 442 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:16,780 things involving it the reincarnation 443 00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:19,390 cases the physical mediumship both 444 00:17:24,659 --> 00:17:21,790 fascinating to me and then what had one 445 00:17:26,579 --> 00:17:24,669 thing that happened was in 2011 I was 446 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:26,589 present when a very close friend of mine 447 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:29,230 died and you know at the very moment 448 00:17:33,030 --> 00:17:31,210 that that person took their last breath 449 00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:33,040 and that was something I'd never 450 00:17:38,340 --> 00:17:35,860 experienced before and it really it was 451 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:38,350 very profound for me to be there for 452 00:17:42,570 --> 00:17:40,390 that moment and it brought up a lot of 453 00:17:44,370 --> 00:17:42,580 deeper questions in me and it sort of 454 00:17:46,159 --> 00:17:44,380 hit me over the head like this personal 455 00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:46,169 experience that made me want to 456 00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:50,470 understand more about how it's just so I 457 00:17:53,789 --> 00:17:51,460 don't know if you've ever been with a 458 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:53,799 dying person but it's very surreal when 459 00:17:57,690 --> 00:17:55,809 they're suddenly there one minute and 460 00:17:59,820 --> 00:17:57,700 then they're gone it's hard to 461 00:18:02,789 --> 00:17:59,830 comprehend and so that kind of also 462 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:02,799 stimulated me to sort of want to 463 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:05,290 discover more about the whole survival 464 00:18:10,169 --> 00:18:07,809 question and I started to once the UFO 465 00:18:12,659 --> 00:18:10,179 book calmed down the effects of the opah 466 00:18:14,370 --> 00:18:12,669 book calm down I started to poke into 467 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:14,380 this a little bit more deeply and then I 468 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:16,240 had the opportunity to do another book 469 00:18:20,730 --> 00:18:18,880 on it so it was a you know an 470 00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:20,740 opportunity I definitely wanted to take 471 00:18:28,289 --> 00:18:24,040 so how did all that shape your approach 472 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:28,299 to the book because there are these you 473 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:29,740 know the approach of the book is great 474 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:32,470 again it's this synthesis it's coming at 475 00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:35,890 it kind of as this straight on 476 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:37,630 investigative reporter look I looked at 477 00:18:41,010 --> 00:18:38,970 this this this these things are 478 00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:41,020 happening I'm talking to the best 479 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:43,140 experts here you go here's the evidence 480 00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:45,130 so you're having some personal 481 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:46,720 experiences that are really kind 482 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:48,340 probably touching you really deeply but 483 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:49,690 you're pulling back from that a little 484 00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:51,970 bit in the book and kind of laying it 485 00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:54,760 out in a systematic way what was your 486 00:19:00,779 --> 00:18:56,620 thought process and and what would be 487 00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:00,789 the right book at this time to kind of 488 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:03,070 get this stuff out there yeah I mean 489 00:19:06,029 --> 00:19:04,450 it's interesting you asked about the 490 00:19:08,010 --> 00:19:06,039 relationship to the UFO book because it 491 00:19:12,419 --> 00:19:08,020 does sort of follow a similar pattern 492 00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:12,429 for me in that I'm providing data I'm 493 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:15,039 not drawing a lot of conclusions that 494 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:17,230 can't be proven but I you know I'm 495 00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:19,210 willing to explore various conclusions 496 00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:22,390 and I also include chapters by others 497 00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:24,460 which I did in UFOs because I just think 498 00:19:29,399 --> 00:19:27,039 that adds a great deal to it so it's 499 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:29,409 it's sort of I mean it sort of follows a 500 00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:31,570 similar kind of pattern I guess the 501 00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:33,820 difference was though Alyx is number one 502 00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:35,679 that I didn't spend ten years and 503 00:19:40,919 --> 00:19:38,559 looking into this so it was a journey of 504 00:19:43,529 --> 00:19:40,929 discovery for me while I was actually 505 00:19:45,299 --> 00:19:43,539 researching it while I was writing it I 506 00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:45,309 didn't really know how it would come out 507 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:48,070 when I started certainly in terms of my 508 00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:49,990 own personal experiences I mean these 509 00:19:54,570 --> 00:19:51,880 were things that I never never knew what 510 00:19:56,610 --> 00:19:54,580 happened so it was a more sort of a 511 00:19:59,279 --> 00:19:56,620 personal journey for me and more of a 512 00:20:02,190 --> 00:19:59,289 discovery process in a shorter period of 513 00:20:04,110 --> 00:20:02,200 time than the UFO book was and it also 514 00:20:06,149 --> 00:20:04,120 is more difficult to deal with for me 515 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:06,159 because it's it's much harder to pin 516 00:20:10,890 --> 00:20:08,770 down this information it's from a lot of 517 00:20:12,899 --> 00:20:10,900 different areas you know I felt that I 518 00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:12,909 could have written three books there's 519 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:14,830 so much that I felt I had to leave out 520 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:18,070 because it spans such a wide area of 521 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:20,890 research and and um so and it's just 522 00:20:25,289 --> 00:20:22,809 more difficult for me to talk about it 523 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:25,299 it's it seems more complicated to me 524 00:20:30,510 --> 00:20:27,850 than the UFO topic so in that sense it 525 00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:30,520 was sort of a step into a bigger more 526 00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:33,400 challenging work oh I can I can 527 00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:34,960 definitely see what you mean and I think 528 00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:36,340 people will appreciate that when they 529 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:38,230 pick up the book and you know by the way 530 00:20:42,899 --> 00:20:40,120 that's also what makes this but you 531 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:42,909 can't help but say this this is the kind 532 00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:44,260 of book people are gonna want to buy and 533 00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:46,960 give to other people right because when 534 00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:49,900 if you've been exposed this material 535 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:51,100 like some people are exposed to 536 00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:53,590 near-death experience science and then 537 00:20:57,419 --> 00:20:56,049 they kind of let it slip at the dining 538 00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:57,429 room table and somebody kind of fires 539 00:21:01,720 --> 00:20:59,210 back and it's like 540 00:21:02,980 --> 00:21:01,730 until you look bigger and bigger and 541 00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:02,990 bigger at you know it's not just 542 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:04,820 near-death experience it's all this 543 00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:06,650 other after death communication and then 544 00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:08,960 it's the mediumship and then it's like 545 00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:11,540 you get deep deep into the sighs stuff 546 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:14,000 the parapsychology stuff and you feel 547 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:15,530 and you felt the need to do that it 548 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:17,690 comes through you do a nice job and talk 549 00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:20,930 to a lot of the leading Syre searchers 550 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:23,900 whose conclusions don't necessarily line 551 00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:27,050 up with exactly with what the mediums 552 00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:29,150 and the NDE people are saying but you're 553 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:30,620 just kind of laying it all out there 554 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:33,530 saying we have to look at what all this 555 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:35,210 stuff is pointing to because it's all 556 00:21:40,450 --> 00:21:38,050 pointing in the same direction regarding 557 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:40,460 consciousness so that that is kind of 558 00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:43,370 tough isn't it yeah it was a big it was 559 00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:44,990 I felt like I was dealing with a massive 560 00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:48,080 arena you know of information and of 561 00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:50,980 unanswered questions and a mystery and 562 00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:54,080 so I I do I do think making the 563 00:21:58,420 --> 00:21:56,000 connections as I said between all the 564 00:21:59,950 --> 00:21:58,430 different areas is really what sort of 565 00:22:01,420 --> 00:21:59,960 holds the book together I mean there's 566 00:22:04,330 --> 00:22:01,430 definitely I feel like there's a unity 567 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:04,340 to it and it builds and I'm also what I 568 00:22:08,350 --> 00:22:06,710 do also alex is I try to start with the 569 00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:08,360 things that are more accessible to 570 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:10,550 people it's things that are you know not 571 00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:12,050 going to be quite as seemed quite as 572 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:14,600 weird and then I take them gradually 573 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:18,050 through a sort of a progression of more 574 00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:20,330 advanced and more unusual and more 575 00:22:24,670 --> 00:22:22,580 dramatic phenomena and ending with 576 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:24,680 physical mediumship which is the thing 577 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:26,570 that is the most difficult for any 578 00:22:31,210 --> 00:22:29,450 person to accept understandably but I'm 579 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:31,220 hoping by the time I get there they have 580 00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:33,170 enough background from what they've read 581 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:35,750 before that they might be able to accept 582 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:38,570 it and that's it that's important I mean 583 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:39,830 that's sort of why it's often hard for 584 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:41,660 me to talk about some of these things 585 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:44,450 out of context because I feel like the 586 00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:46,910 context is really important in terms of 587 00:22:51,610 --> 00:22:49,520 people being able to access and accept 588 00:22:55,420 --> 00:22:51,620 what some of this stuff is because it's 589 00:22:57,340 --> 00:22:55,430 very strange yeah let's talk about 590 00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:57,350 near-death experience science it's 591 00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:59,120 something we've covered a ton on this 592 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:00,950 show you have an excellent chapter in 593 00:23:06,550 --> 00:23:03,890 the book from Dutch cardiologist dr. PIM 594 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:06,560 van LOM oh you say this is a journey for 595 00:23:12,190 --> 00:23:09,970 you what was your biggest takeaway 596 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:12,200 learning points about 597 00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:14,090 near death experience that you didn't 598 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:17,180 know and you discovered um well I think 599 00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:19,730 if you know I think what's actually more 600 00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:21,800 interesting to me than the NDEs are the 601 00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:24,200 veridical out-of-body experiences so we 602 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:25,190 can sort of they're very closely 603 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:28,490 connected but I think of course the 604 00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:31,490 universality of them is really important 605 00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:34,520 and the fact that there has not been out 606 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:36,740 there's no adequate explanation that's 607 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:38,810 been offered to account for all the 608 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:40,610 different components of NDEs 609 00:23:45,610 --> 00:23:43,640 I respect greatly the work of PIM van 610 00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:45,620 Lommel when others who have spent so 611 00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:47,840 much time you know investigating them 612 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:51,080 and and end Vonn levels a description in 613 00:23:56,020 --> 00:23:53,390 his chapter of the way he sees 614 00:23:58,210 --> 00:23:56,030 consciousness being sort of in a field 615 00:24:00,640 --> 00:23:58,220 and the brain is like a more of a 616 00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:00,650 receiver not a producer of consciousness 617 00:24:04,990 --> 00:24:03,260 I feel like he describes it so 618 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:05,000 eloquently and so beautifully in his 619 00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:07,490 chapter way better than I ever could and 620 00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:08,960 he's the one that understands it he's 621 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:11,180 been studying it so I think all of that 622 00:24:15,790 --> 00:24:12,770 is really I mean what but but the key 623 00:24:18,610 --> 00:24:15,800 component for me as a journalist you 624 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:18,620 know about this whole arena of NDEs and 625 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:20,810 OBEs is when you have a veridical OBE 626 00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:23,330 which is when somebody leaves their body 627 00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:25,190 as they experience it anyway 628 00:24:28,570 --> 00:24:27,500 and are able to report back this is 629 00:24:31,690 --> 00:24:28,580 leaving their body when they are 630 00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:31,700 completely clinically dead meaning 631 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:33,200 there's no heartbeat there's no brain 632 00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:35,210 activity they're going through some kind 633 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:37,270 of a medical trauma or something and 634 00:24:42,910 --> 00:24:40,850 when they are able to report back after 635 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:42,920 they come back into their bodies sites 636 00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:45,440 and things they've seen and things 637 00:24:50,860 --> 00:24:47,840 they've heard that correlate with real 638 00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:50,870 events and they often would report them 639 00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:53,150 from a perspective of a different of the 640 00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:54,590 ceiling sight which is often where they 641 00:24:58,900 --> 00:24:56,060 say they find themselves so in one case 642 00:25:01,450 --> 00:24:58,910 we have a social worker who was studied 643 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:01,460 by sampar Nia in a study he did with 644 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:05,200 many colleagues described seeing a bald 645 00:25:09,790 --> 00:25:07,850 one of the medics was bald and I'm he 646 00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:09,800 wouldn't have been able to see that very 647 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:12,590 well from his bed led but he was an 648 00:25:16,060 --> 00:25:14,810 unconscious anyway but he was able to 649 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:16,070 describe that he was able to describe 650 00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:18,050 sounds that he heard that correlated 651 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:20,150 with specific beeps that were being made 652 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:22,610 at specific time intervals in a machine 653 00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:25,970 so the point being that you can 654 00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:28,960 verify that the person actually was was 655 00:25:34,090 --> 00:25:32,030 having perceptions when his brain was 656 00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:34,100 completely non-functional and you can 657 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:35,720 verify it because of what he reports 658 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:38,090 back as being in that's accurate so that 659 00:25:42,580 --> 00:25:39,710 to me is really significant because it 660 00:25:44,530 --> 00:25:42,590 shows the consciousness seems to be able 661 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:44,540 to function independently of the brain 662 00:25:48,430 --> 00:25:46,970 now you have to know this but there's a 663 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:48,440 ton of people that immediately are gonna 664 00:25:51,790 --> 00:25:50,270 push back and just scream because they 665 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,800 screaming he went all of you whatever 666 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:52,880 you say that the brain was 667 00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:55,010 non-functional or it was clinically dead 668 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:56,660 or wasn't really dead you know they have 669 00:26:01,180 --> 00:25:58,640 these discussions all the time I take a 670 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:01,190 couple things I took out of the van loml 671 00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:02,930 a chapter that I thought were 672 00:26:07,420 --> 00:26:05,120 particularly significant and I 673 00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:07,430 interviewed him before and read a bunch 674 00:26:12,030 --> 00:26:09,320 of his stuff so but it came through is 675 00:26:14,830 --> 00:26:12,040 somewhat fresh is he very succinctly 676 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:14,840 talks about the history with this and 677 00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:16,850 it's he has been around for a long time 678 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:18,470 he's been a cardiologist for a long time 679 00:26:25,390 --> 00:26:22,130 so you really get the sense of a medical 680 00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:25,400 doctor who really stumbled upon this and 681 00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:27,440 couldn't look the other way I mean he 682 00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:29,420 couldn't he's like look before when I 683 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:30,670 started my career we weren't 684 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:33,050 resuscitating anybody you know you had 685 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:35,030 cardiac arrest you're dead that's it and 686 00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:37,490 then with the advent of resuscitation we 687 00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:38,780 start to bring more of these people back 688 00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:41,060 and you know they started telling these 689 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:42,980 stories and then the way he kind of as 690 00:26:48,070 --> 00:26:45,350 you said goes through and again very 691 00:26:51,670 --> 00:26:48,080 succinctly says well look we eliminated 692 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:51,680 all the other possible explanations and 693 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:53,930 some of these people had a short cardiac 694 00:26:58,360 --> 00:26:56,330 arrest before they resuscitated some had 695 00:27:00,640 --> 00:26:58,370 a long one still the same near-death 696 00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:00,650 experience still the same depth you know 697 00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:02,720 some of them had drugs some of them 698 00:27:08,140 --> 00:27:05,270 didn't same experience same experience 699 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:08,150 so we hammer on this near-death 700 00:27:15,550 --> 00:27:11,420 experience science because there it's so 701 00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:15,560 annoys neuroscience and scientist eyen 702 00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:17,720 Syngenta I mean it really flips it on 703 00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:19,400 its heads there's a lot of pushback 704 00:27:25,420 --> 00:27:22,400 there but I thought he does a great job 705 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:25,430 of really just kind of laying it out in 706 00:27:31,150 --> 00:27:28,730 really clear terms as you point out I 707 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:31,160 love his curiosity Alex you know that he 708 00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:33,530 really was curious he wants to know he 709 00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:35,150 wants to understand and he asked the 710 00:27:39,670 --> 00:27:37,640 question to in his chapter you know 711 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:39,680 where is that curiosity in science 712 00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:44,810 oh yeah well well you know and I want to 713 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,340 get your opinion on this because it's 714 00:27:51,730 --> 00:27:48,320 something I've kind of hammered on for a 715 00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:51,740 while but you know is it a lack of 716 00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:55,220 curiosity is it just a willful ignorance 717 00:27:59,740 --> 00:27:57,950 or I sometimes wonder if there's 718 00:28:01,800 --> 00:27:59,750 something else going on you know in a 719 00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:01,810 few years ago I interviewed this woman 720 00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:04,940 her name is dr. Carolyn Watt and she's 721 00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:06,580 the head of the department of 722 00:28:12,490 --> 00:28:08,900 parapsychology at edinburgh scotland 723 00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,500 which is one of the premier university 724 00:28:16,750 --> 00:28:14,960 studying sigh you know which is all in 725 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:16,760 your book all about the size stuff and 726 00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:19,250 all that and I don't know if you ran 727 00:28:23,980 --> 00:28:21,560 across this but the title of her article 728 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:23,990 is there is nothing paranormal about 729 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:26,930 near-death experiences how neuroscience 730 00:28:31,330 --> 00:28:28,910 can explain seeing bright lights meeting 731 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:31,340 the dead or being convinced that you are 732 00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:34,250 one of them and I have to tell you let's 733 00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:36,860 say I mean this I still get messages he 734 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:38,300 knows whatever from people saying hey 735 00:28:43,690 --> 00:28:40,370 you know all this stuff it's not real 736 00:28:46,450 --> 00:28:43,700 because this woman said I had Iran it's 737 00:28:51,130 --> 00:28:46,460 just a complete hit piece the article is 738 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:51,140 completely debunked I had Janice Holden 739 00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:54,050 from University of North Texas you know 740 00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:55,760 good research or excellent researcher in 741 00:28:59,950 --> 00:28:57,950 this field dr. Jan Holden come on 742 00:29:01,650 --> 00:28:59,960 completely showed they miss quoted 743 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:01,660 Vaughn Lama I mean they just badly 744 00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:05,510 sloppily misquoted him is there some 745 00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:08,960 kind of I don't know how organized it is 746 00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:11,600 but sometimes when you see the reaction 747 00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:15,350 to the survival issue and in particular 748 00:29:18,940 --> 00:29:16,340 we're talking about near-death 749 00:29:21,070 --> 00:29:18,950 experience I don't wonder if there's 750 00:29:23,410 --> 00:29:21,080 something else going on here in terms of 751 00:29:26,290 --> 00:29:23,420 the amount of pushback and the organized 752 00:29:28,330 --> 00:29:26,300 pushback that you get on this yeah I 753 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:28,340 need a thoughts I'm sure you know more 754 00:29:31,630 --> 00:29:29,510 about that I do because you probably 755 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:31,640 talked to more people than I do but it's 756 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:33,710 certainly in the UFO field I mean I 757 00:29:38,590 --> 00:29:36,650 there were people who were absolutely 758 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:38,600 convinced people like at the size cups 759 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:40,910 they have a mission they're absolutely 760 00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:43,310 committed to debunking this no matter 761 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:44,900 what the data I mean that's their 762 00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:48,050 preconceived position that it can't 763 00:29:52,810 --> 00:29:50,780 possibly happen and they will go to any 764 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:52,820 lengths no matter how 765 00:29:59,410 --> 00:29:56,510 and you know dishonest they are to to 766 00:30:01,090 --> 00:29:59,420 debunk things and I don't know if in 767 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:01,100 this field I know I haven't been 768 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:03,530 involved with it as long I don't know if 769 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:04,850 there's just people that have that 770 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:07,970 commitment for whatever reasons but I'm 771 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:09,530 sure you know more about it than I do 772 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:11,110 and why somebody who studies 773 00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:14,330 parapsychology from like her would would 774 00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:16,280 be so close to this I don't know it's 775 00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:18,980 beyond me but I can't provide an answer 776 00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:21,950 for what the root of that is and maybe 777 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:23,660 it's a combination of a lot of factors 778 00:30:27,340 --> 00:30:25,370 and it's different for each person that 779 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:27,350 pushes back they have different reasons 780 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:32,120 for doing it I don't know yeah okay 781 00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,030 let's talk about that's a tough one too 782 00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:38,000 but let's talk about religion and more 783 00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:41,360 broadly about spirituality and beliefs 784 00:30:46,690 --> 00:30:44,510 and I think as it ties into maybe the 785 00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:46,700 purpose of the book again the short 786 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:49,220 excerpt from the introduction the very 787 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:50,810 excellent introduction that does a great 788 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:53,090 job of laying out the whole book you're 789 00:30:59,170 --> 00:30:55,930 right what if we could develop a broad 790 00:31:01,930 --> 00:30:59,180 unified view of what could be the 791 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:01,940 reality of life after death based on 792 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:05,570 facts and thereby diminish the potency 793 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:09,230 of competing rigid belief systems is 794 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:13,250 this the big picture goal that you have 795 00:31:20,140 --> 00:31:17,170 in mind a kind of wean us off of 796 00:31:23,050 --> 00:31:20,150 religion I guess is religion and at the 797 00:31:25,330 --> 00:31:23,060 same time you know atheistic scientist 798 00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:25,340 is that where you're headed on this I 799 00:31:28,530 --> 00:31:27,020 mean that's a loaded question because 800 00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:28,540 certainly I'm not interested in 801 00:31:34,060 --> 00:31:30,980 challenging or undermining anybody's 802 00:31:36,130 --> 00:31:34,070 faith or religious beliefs or mystical 803 00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:36,140 beliefs or whatever our beliefs are 804 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:38,390 meaningful to them but I do think that 805 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:40,610 the information in this book doesn't 806 00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:43,910 contradict belief systems I mean it's I 807 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:46,760 hope I would hope that anybody in a 808 00:31:51,670 --> 00:31:48,770 regardless of their belief systems or 809 00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,680 their religion would be curious to know 810 00:31:55,930 --> 00:31:53,840 what the facts are you know what what 811 00:31:59,320 --> 00:31:55,940 really is when it comes to the question 812 00:32:00,640 --> 00:31:59,330 of an afterlife and I'd to structure it 813 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:00,650 in a way first of all this is not a 814 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:02,570 religious book at all I don't I don't 815 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:05,450 deal at all with religious concepts or 816 00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:07,650 philosophies and that kind of stuff or 817 00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:09,750 speculation about what the afterlife is 818 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:13,110 like which you know people have to leave 819 00:32:17,630 --> 00:32:15,450 that up to their particular face or 820 00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:17,640 whatever but I also don't think that the 821 00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:19,350 information in this book contradicts our 822 00:32:25,630 --> 00:32:22,640 challenges religion because religion 823 00:32:28,820 --> 00:32:25,640 most religions do point for some kind of 824 00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:28,830 an afterlife as I understand it I'm 825 00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:30,990 basically not a religious person but I 826 00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:34,320 don't see how this would contradict 827 00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:36,990 belief systems that believe in that and 828 00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:39,390 it actually might help people reinforce 829 00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:43,590 their concept of an afterlife so and you 830 00:32:47,779 --> 00:32:45,150 know the bigger picture of whether it 831 00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:47,789 could help undo the conflicts that 832 00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:49,620 people feel regarding belief systems I 833 00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:52,080 mean that's a kind of an idealistic hope 834 00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,150 that would be yeah we'd be fantastic at 835 00:32:58,340 --> 00:32:56,640 right you know that we didn't have 836 00:33:00,380 --> 00:32:58,350 groups fighting with each other anymore 837 00:33:01,159 --> 00:33:00,390 about belief systems that would be 838 00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:01,169 fantastic 839 00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,320 so I just threw that in there as a you 840 00:33:08,539 --> 00:33:06,720 know as a potential purpose that that 841 00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:08,549 information like this could serve in the 842 00:33:15,890 --> 00:33:13,440 world I just have to say me but when I 843 00:33:18,140 --> 00:33:15,900 went the you know the religious thing or 844 00:33:20,419 --> 00:33:18,150 the god thing I mean it's like I wasn't 845 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:20,429 trying to kind of lead you where you 846 00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,250 didn't want to go but to me it seems 847 00:33:27,049 --> 00:33:25,440 obvious and I sometimes don't like when 848 00:33:29,570 --> 00:33:27,059 we kind of talk around the thing you 849 00:33:32,539 --> 00:33:29,580 know it's like I'll tell you number one 850 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:32,549 I mean I think you know that there are 851 00:33:40,580 --> 00:33:35,010 plenty of people that will be offended 852 00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:40,590 by the suggestion that you know a medium 853 00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:42,809 is talking to the dead and that that 854 00:33:48,289 --> 00:33:45,270 doesn't contradict their belief systems 855 00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:48,299 yeah it sure as hell does contradict a 856 00:33:53,299 --> 00:33:50,820 lot of people out there fundamentalist 857 00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:53,309 Christians just see it as you know 858 00:33:58,010 --> 00:33:54,809 they'll just tell you it's all demonic 859 00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,020 I've I've also interviewed you know and 860 00:34:02,659 --> 00:34:00,480 I and I hate when when we just can't 861 00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:02,669 handle this thing straight straight on 862 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:04,860 but I've interviewed a couple of people 863 00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:07,110 who are pretty prominent you know 864 00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:10,200 best-selling books on Christian NDEs and 865 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:12,780 now their spin is to take it all and say 866 00:34:17,329 --> 00:34:15,210 well there's these people who have these 867 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:17,339 and we can't deny it I mean people have 868 00:34:21,059 --> 00:34:18,249 religious 869 00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:21,069 near-death experiences people have 870 00:34:26,749 --> 00:34:23,470 religious after death communication 871 00:34:29,339 --> 00:34:26,759 experiences and by that I mean they see 872 00:34:31,619 --> 00:34:29,349 Jesus let's just stick to that you know 873 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:31,629 they see Jesus and Jesus was crucified 874 00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:34,569 and I he totally put his hands put my 875 00:34:37,889 --> 00:34:36,609 hand where he was you know in his hand 876 00:34:40,259 --> 00:34:37,899 where it was up on the cross and 877 00:34:43,139 --> 00:34:40,269 therefore you know and you can go on you 878 00:34:45,269 --> 00:34:43,149 know dr. Jeff Long's website the largest 879 00:34:47,549 --> 00:34:45,279 database of near-death experiences and 880 00:34:50,009 --> 00:34:47,559 you can read one after another after 881 00:34:51,749 --> 00:34:50,019 another what happens when I interview 882 00:34:54,509 --> 00:34:51,759 these people as I say but that's not 883 00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:54,519 what the broader science says the 884 00:34:58,319 --> 00:34:55,839 broader science says yeah you might have 885 00:35:00,029 --> 00:34:58,329 had that experience but a lot other 886 00:35:02,370 --> 00:35:00,039 people didn't have that religious 887 00:35:04,979 --> 00:35:02,380 experience and overall the data suggests 888 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:04,989 the opposite of that that we can't tie 889 00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:08,170 this survival thing to any set religious 890 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:11,140 belief so maybe I was I wasn't 891 00:35:14,249 --> 00:35:12,729 necessarily trying to lead you it's just 892 00:35:16,589 --> 00:35:14,259 where I've been led is to say hey 893 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:16,599 religion is all about this and then they 894 00:35:20,999 --> 00:35:18,910 care deeply about this but I agree with 895 00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:21,009 you as well that I'm sorry I'll shut up 896 00:35:27,269 --> 00:35:24,640 but you know broadly speaking it's it's 897 00:35:29,489 --> 00:35:27,279 this should be a huge bone to religion 898 00:35:31,549 --> 00:35:29,499 because in the debate over whether there 899 00:35:34,979 --> 00:35:31,559 is something or whether there is nothing 900 00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:34,989 it's something I know well that's what I 901 00:35:38,099 --> 00:35:36,369 was really trying to say and I'm you 902 00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:38,109 know I have a very simplistic attitude 903 00:35:41,969 --> 00:35:40,390 about it because I haven't yet been the 904 00:35:43,769 --> 00:35:41,979 recipient of the pushback that will 905 00:35:45,630 --> 00:35:43,779 probably come and I think I'll have to 906 00:35:48,509 --> 00:35:45,640 consult with you Alex when that happens 907 00:35:51,569 --> 00:35:48,519 because uh you know I'm just sort of 908 00:35:54,779 --> 00:35:51,579 naive but I take the position that yeah 909 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:54,789 this would be helpful to anybody with 910 00:35:59,690 --> 00:35:57,130 religious ideas but as you're pointing 911 00:36:02,609 --> 00:35:59,700 out if they can't accept mediumship 912 00:36:04,859 --> 00:36:02,619 which means I guess that they might 913 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:04,869 believe that after you die you go to a 914 00:36:08,219 --> 00:36:06,609 place called heaven but I guess they 915 00:36:09,930 --> 00:36:08,229 don't allow for that possibility that 916 00:36:12,809 --> 00:36:09,940 you could actually communicate from that 917 00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:12,819 place to this earth that doesn't fit in 918 00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:15,369 within their worldview I guess so they 919 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:18,430 can't accept it but you know maybe 920 00:36:23,339 --> 00:36:20,410 that'll open up some doors for some 921 00:36:24,749 --> 00:36:23,349 Christians to be happy that maybe they 922 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:24,759 can be in touch with their loved ones 923 00:36:29,249 --> 00:36:26,410 from heaven I don't know I don't know 924 00:36:30,959 --> 00:36:29,259 how it works people I really don't you I 925 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:30,969 can't take care of that for people I'm 926 00:36:34,860 --> 00:36:31,850 just trying to prove 927 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:34,870 factual information and studies and 928 00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:37,370 reality here and they can do what they 929 00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:39,470 want with it but I hope it doesn't 930 00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:42,190 offend anybody that wasn't my intention 931 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:45,470 so we've touched on mediumship a couple 932 00:36:50,620 --> 00:36:47,570 of times tell folks a little bit about 933 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:50,630 what that part of your journey was was 934 00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:53,810 like and what impressed you and what 935 00:36:59,020 --> 00:36:57,680 changed for you from from that well I 936 00:37:00,700 --> 00:36:59,030 mean we could start with mental 937 00:37:02,410 --> 00:37:00,710 mediumship there's of course three types 938 00:37:04,810 --> 00:37:02,420 there's mental mediumship trance 939 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:04,820 mediumship and then physical mediumship 940 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:07,490 and my initial experiences were with 941 00:37:11,530 --> 00:37:09,890 mental mediumship which which means that 942 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:11,540 the medium I mean maybe you're all your 943 00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:14,570 your listeners know this but the medium 944 00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:16,220 is in a normal state of consciousness 945 00:37:22,780 --> 00:37:19,070 and seems to have some kind of an 946 00:37:25,780 --> 00:37:22,790 antenna or some ability to tap into what 947 00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:25,790 she says are deceased people on the 948 00:37:29,740 --> 00:37:27,440 other side and she's able to transmit 949 00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:29,750 information to the person receiving it 950 00:37:35,830 --> 00:37:33,140 which is called the sitter and you know 951 00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:35,840 the sitter gets the feeling that their 952 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:37,940 loved one still exists because of all 953 00:37:41,290 --> 00:37:39,410 the information that's provided that 954 00:37:44,140 --> 00:37:41,300 verifies that for them and basically 955 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:44,150 that's the process and what I I wanted 956 00:37:50,370 --> 00:37:47,330 to find some mediums who I could test in 957 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:50,380 under sort of my own personal controls 958 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:53,570 which I did I had two extraordinary 959 00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,210 mediums do readings for me and they were 960 00:38:02,020 --> 00:37:58,640 just way beyond average in their 961 00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:02,030 accuracy the accuracy repeated itself 962 00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:04,160 between the two readings that I did and 963 00:38:10,210 --> 00:38:07,160 the second reading I'm the first reading 964 00:38:11,650 --> 00:38:10,220 that none of them knew who I was but as 965 00:38:13,780 --> 00:38:11,660 I mentioned in the book the first 966 00:38:16,060 --> 00:38:13,790 reading they medium had my phone number 967 00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:16,070 but I'm not gonna go into this I just 968 00:38:20,140 --> 00:38:18,470 know that she didn't seek out anything 969 00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:20,150 about me through that phone number but 970 00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:22,100 nonetheless well let let's pause there 971 00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:23,540 for just a minute because that's the 972 00:38:27,610 --> 00:38:25,790 full pushback that people who are you 973 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:27,620 know super skeptical and are trying to 974 00:38:31,810 --> 00:38:29,930 defend that position they always throw 975 00:38:33,460 --> 00:38:31,820 out oh you know you were fooled and it's 976 00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:33,470 so easy for those people to dupe you I 977 00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:34,760 thought its kind of seen it the other 978 00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:36,740 way I'd like to hear what your controls 979 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:39,710 were but my experience is that if you're 980 00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:42,320 you know if you're going in and you say 981 00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:43,670 I really want to control this and I 982 00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:45,200 don't care as you know I just want to 983 00:38:49,569 --> 00:38:47,089 know that I really got the real deal 984 00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:49,579 it's pretty easy to control it isn't it 985 00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:52,460 well yeah I mean here's what I did for 986 00:38:57,609 --> 00:38:55,520 the reading I did with the the medium in 987 00:39:00,640 --> 00:38:57,619 Ireland his name was Sandra O'Hara I 988 00:39:03,250 --> 00:39:00,650 used a fake name when I contacted her I 989 00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:03,260 set up a completely separate email 990 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:04,910 address that was completely different 991 00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:06,290 from my regular email address that 992 00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:09,920 didn't involve my name and I only used 993 00:39:14,140 --> 00:39:12,800 that fake name when I paid her and 994 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:14,150 everything else was paid through PayPal 995 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:17,450 she had absolutely no idea of my name my 996 00:39:22,780 --> 00:39:20,210 location on the planet nothing about me 997 00:39:25,630 --> 00:39:22,790 at all so to me that was pretty pretty 998 00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:25,640 good controls and the we talked through 999 00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:28,400 skype when she did the reading but she 1000 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:29,900 didn't know anything about me not even 1001 00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:31,609 my name so there was no way she could 1002 00:39:37,540 --> 00:39:34,630 have looked up anything in advance and 1003 00:39:39,490 --> 00:39:37,550 plus the mediums will also often provide 1004 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:39,500 information that even if they did look 1005 00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:41,540 you up they couldn't find anyway it's 1006 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:43,250 very personal 1007 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:45,530 one of the people that came through for 1008 00:39:50,589 --> 00:39:48,530 me was sort of a public figure but the 1009 00:39:53,380 --> 00:39:50,599 other one was my brother that nobody 1010 00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:53,390 could possibly know anything about he's 1011 00:39:59,470 --> 00:39:56,710 nowhere on the internet so you know you 1012 00:40:01,450 --> 00:39:59,480 anyway took talk to me I felt very 1013 00:40:03,730 --> 00:40:01,460 comfortable with those being controlled 1014 00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:03,740 situations I don't there's no way that 1015 00:40:07,569 --> 00:40:05,180 this medium could have found out 1016 00:40:10,359 --> 00:40:07,579 anything about me in advance that was 1017 00:40:11,859 --> 00:40:10,369 satisfactory to me anyway yeah and again 1018 00:40:13,540 --> 00:40:11,869 that goes back to the journalism thing 1019 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:13,550 you know it's like when I'm reading that 1020 00:40:19,059 --> 00:40:16,310 from you I'm saying this is reasonable 1021 00:40:21,220 --> 00:40:19,069 yeah because sometimes the scientific 1022 00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:21,230 stuff and I know Julie by shell is 1023 00:40:26,109 --> 00:40:24,160 included in your book and you know she's 1024 00:40:29,020 --> 00:40:26,119 fantastic we've had around several times 1025 00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:29,030 and I love her rigor and she's into the 1026 00:40:33,609 --> 00:40:31,060 science part of it and you know 1027 00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:33,619 quadruple controls and quintuple 1028 00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:36,319 controls and all this what I liked was 1029 00:40:41,319 --> 00:40:38,630 just know here's a person that seems 1030 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:41,329 like she's on the ball and she knows how 1031 00:40:45,250 --> 00:40:43,760 to she knows how to judge people and she 1032 00:40:47,410 --> 00:40:45,260 knows how to tell if she's being duped 1033 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:47,420 and she was there and she didn't get 1034 00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:50,450 duped right and so then therefore you 1035 00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:52,160 know with the level of accurate 1036 00:40:56,109 --> 00:40:53,750 information that came through it's just 1037 00:40:58,089 --> 00:40:56,119 stunning to sit there and hear this 1038 00:40:58,840 --> 00:40:58,099 information coming through from somebody 1039 00:41:01,720 --> 00:40:58,850 who has 1040 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:01,730 who doesn't even know your name and so I 1041 00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:03,410 was able to do my own analysis 1042 00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:05,270 afterwards and figure out how accurate 1043 00:41:09,610 --> 00:41:07,880 she was and it was you know you there's 1044 00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:09,620 two ways to explain it as far as I'm 1045 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:11,420 concerned number one 1046 00:41:15,790 --> 00:41:14,330 the deceased people were communicating 1047 00:41:17,410 --> 00:41:15,800 through her which is what she was 1048 00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,420 absolutely a hundred percent sure what 1049 00:41:22,090 --> 00:41:20,000 was happening and I have to say that 1050 00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:22,100 personality traits came through as well 1051 00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:24,680 it wasn't just information or the second 1052 00:41:28,090 --> 00:41:26,480 possible explanation is that all the 1053 00:41:30,430 --> 00:41:28,100 information was coming through through 1054 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:30,440 the mediums own sigh through her own 1055 00:41:35,230 --> 00:41:32,810 telepathy and clairvoyance that she was 1056 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:35,240 basically reading my mind but maybe 1057 00:41:38,710 --> 00:41:36,710 doesn't realize that that's what's 1058 00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:38,720 happening as far as I'm concerned 1059 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:40,550 there's no other way to explain this and 1060 00:41:45,940 --> 00:41:43,370 the issue is that many people in the 1061 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:45,950 scientific world won't even accept the 1062 00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:48,650 SCI explanation so they have to come up 1063 00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:50,480 with it being fraudulent in some way but 1064 00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:52,430 they can't do that either so I'm kind of 1065 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:53,480 interested to see how they're gonna 1066 00:42:01,510 --> 00:41:57,290 respond to this yeah well I am too 1067 00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:01,520 except I no doubt that they know no 1068 00:42:05,650 --> 00:42:03,670 shortage of you know possible 1069 00:42:08,110 --> 00:42:05,660 explanations and way to kind of wiggle 1070 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:08,120 their way out of it I think let's talk a 1071 00:42:13,450 --> 00:42:10,390 little bit about the super sigh 1072 00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:13,460 explanation because you do go into that 1073 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:15,520 you know like I said this is not a oh 1074 00:42:21,070 --> 00:42:18,770 it's a very readable book but it doesn't 1075 00:42:24,190 --> 00:42:21,080 shy away from some of the science so you 1076 00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:24,200 talked to dr. Stephen Brody about super 1077 00:42:28,750 --> 00:42:25,820 psy and about that being a possible 1078 00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:28,760 explanation that never seems to be a 1079 00:42:35,170 --> 00:42:32,390 very good fit for all the data I know 1080 00:42:37,090 --> 00:42:35,180 you have to throw it in there I don't 1081 00:42:38,380 --> 00:42:37,100 know if you want to just your opinion on 1082 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:38,390 that I don't have to agree or disagree 1083 00:42:44,350 --> 00:42:41,090 but what did you think at the end of the 1084 00:42:46,060 --> 00:42:44,360 day about the super psy explanation well 1085 00:42:49,090 --> 00:42:46,070 I mean I think there are some situations 1086 00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:49,100 where it's much harder to use that you 1087 00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:50,480 know where it's just harder to conceive 1088 00:42:54,340 --> 00:42:52,300 of it for instance you know 1089 00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:54,350 materializations in the science room of 1090 00:42:59,950 --> 00:42:57,440 living things or drop-in communicators 1091 00:43:01,660 --> 00:42:59,960 or other things like that but physical 1092 00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:01,670 physical characteristics on 1093 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:04,960 reincarnation and stuff I mean it's like 1094 00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:08,090 we push this aside explain and we'll 1095 00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:10,880 push the limit but nonetheless we can't 1096 00:43:15,650 --> 00:43:12,030 be sure I'm 1097 00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:15,660 as Browdy proposes perhaps the potential 1098 00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:16,470 imitations 1099 00:43:21,410 --> 00:43:18,960 Pratap perhaps I is completely unlimited 1100 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:21,420 and it's in its capacities and we don't 1101 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:24,690 understand that yet so but he he himself 1102 00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:26,310 will acknowledge that certain things 1103 00:43:30,530 --> 00:43:28,260 really do push that envelope and he 1104 00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:30,540 leans towards the survival explanation 1105 00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:32,520 and he's incredibly rigorous in his 1106 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:34,800 exploration of the SIOP offices I 1107 00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:37,050 recommend that anybody interested look 1108 00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:39,510 at his work so you know I just think 1109 00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:41,760 there are some cases that really push 1110 00:43:47,810 --> 00:43:44,310 that too but then you can also argue 1111 00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:47,820 that they it's very hard to also argue 1112 00:43:50,780 --> 00:43:49,590 them is coming from dead people I mean 1113 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:50,790 that's pretty weird too 1114 00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:53,250 that's pretty readable too but it seems 1115 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:55,380 to me that you're kind of left in many 1116 00:44:00,140 --> 00:43:57,570 cases with those being the only two 1117 00:44:01,310 --> 00:44:00,150 options now you say that the skeptics 1118 00:44:03,710 --> 00:44:01,320 are gonna push back with other 1119 00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:03,720 explanations but I can't imagine that 1120 00:44:08,450 --> 00:44:06,060 for these best cases that those other 1121 00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:08,460 explanations are really gonna carry much 1122 00:44:15,740 --> 00:44:10,710 weight but I'm waiting to see what 1123 00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:15,750 happens I am too I think you know to 1124 00:44:21,740 --> 00:44:18,060 kind of jump past that where I think 1125 00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:21,750 we're gonna wind up is the other problem 1126 00:44:26,810 --> 00:44:24,720 that we face and that's that if we take 1127 00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:26,820 the leap or even the step that you're 1128 00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:30,240 suggesting we take a lot of castles sand 1129 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:31,920 castles just kind of kind of come 1130 00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:34,410 crumbling down because in the book 1131 00:44:39,350 --> 00:44:36,830 here's another quote from the 1132 00:44:41,810 --> 00:44:39,360 introduction that isn't particularly 1133 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:41,820 relevant you say it's important to make 1134 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:44,730 clear what I mean by survival this 1135 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:47,610 concept does not refer to an impersonal 1136 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:49,650 merging into pure awareness or becoming 1137 00:44:54,530 --> 00:44:51,900 one with universal consciousness as 1138 00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:54,540 envisioned by many who meditate or who 1139 00:44:58,580 --> 00:44:56,670 are influenced by in Eastern religions 1140 00:45:01,070 --> 00:44:58,590 well you've already talked about why you 1141 00:45:05,150 --> 00:45:01,080 might have put that kind of qualifier in 1142 00:45:07,370 --> 00:45:05,160 there but I'm drawn to the first part of 1143 00:45:10,070 --> 00:45:07,380 that which is you know once we jump into 1144 00:45:12,380 --> 00:45:10,080 the survival of consciousness hypothesis 1145 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:12,390 and say well it doesn't look guys like 1146 00:45:17,260 --> 00:45:14,130 it's so much hypothesis it looks like 1147 00:45:19,780 --> 00:45:17,270 that needs to be our starting point our 1148 00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:19,790 understanding and kind of go from there 1149 00:45:25,290 --> 00:45:22,740 well where do we go from there where do 1150 00:45:27,780 --> 00:45:25,300 we go with spirits what are spirits what 1151 00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:27,790 good spirits versus bad spirits is there 1152 00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:30,070 some kind of hierarchy yeah so you go 1153 00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:31,440 back and you talk to the mediums 1154 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:33,340 particularly talked in your death 1155 00:45:37,140 --> 00:45:35,290 experience and there's a hierarchical 1156 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:37,150 order right so these people are they're 1157 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:38,770 having the out-of-body experience which 1158 00:45:43,470 --> 00:45:40,690 you know it's cool and they're seeing 1159 00:45:45,420 --> 00:45:43,480 the the guy the doctor has one brown 1160 00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:45,430 sock and one blue sock and says doc why 1161 00:45:48,540 --> 00:45:47,110 he didn't get your socks right this 1162 00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:48,550 morning is how could you have seen that 1163 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:51,190 but then he says I went to this place 1164 00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:53,770 I met this being then I met these higher 1165 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:55,270 beings and then there was this higher 1166 00:46:02,340 --> 00:45:57,850 being beyond that I mean where do we 1167 00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:02,350 stop in terms of trying to wrap our arms 1168 00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:05,710 around all that maybe in this thing 1169 00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:08,550 called consciousness it gets pretty 1170 00:46:13,980 --> 00:46:11,440 pretty challenging pretty quick doesn't 1171 00:46:16,530 --> 00:46:13,990 it sure does and there's plenty of 1172 00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:16,540 questions that are unanswerable as far 1173 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:18,220 as I'm concerned and probably always 1174 00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:20,170 will be unanswerable and I I think 1175 00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:21,310 that's the thing about near-death 1176 00:46:25,590 --> 00:46:23,200 experiences I mean I think what's us as 1177 00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:25,600 a journalist you know what's important 1178 00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:28,030 about them is what's uniform about them 1179 00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:30,640 is the fact that people do go into some 1180 00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,040 kind of alternative realm and they are 1181 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:35,440 forever changed by that experience I 1182 00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,730 think those kinds of things are more 1183 00:46:40,770 --> 00:46:38,560 important than the specifics of what 1184 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:40,780 they say occurred for them when they 1185 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:43,090 were in that realm because as you point 1186 00:46:46,620 --> 00:46:45,010 out you know the Christians will see 1187 00:46:47,730 --> 00:46:46,630 Jesus and the Buddhists might see the 1188 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:47,740 Buddha and there's a lot of 1189 00:46:52,410 --> 00:46:49,510 differentiation according to what 1190 00:46:54,660 --> 00:46:52,420 people's frame of references so it's 1191 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:54,670 sort of to me more the essential nature 1192 00:47:01,650 --> 00:46:57,010 of the experience that's important and 1193 00:47:03,620 --> 00:47:01,660 how it affects people so the rest of it 1194 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:03,630 who knows the answers to all of that and 1195 00:47:07,860 --> 00:47:05,890 my point in the introduction that I was 1196 00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:07,870 making alex was that the book is 1197 00:47:11,790 --> 00:47:10,030 concerned with the question of personal 1198 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:11,800 survival it's not concerned with the 1199 00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:13,930 question of some kind of you know 1200 00:47:18,690 --> 00:47:16,000 Universal survival where we all kind of 1201 00:47:21,150 --> 00:47:18,700 merge but it's it's asking the question 1202 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:21,160 do we survive in some kind of personal 1203 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:24,130 way where emotions and thoughts and 1204 00:47:31,010 --> 00:47:26,890 psychology and memories are somehow 1205 00:47:34,110 --> 00:47:31,020 carried forth into the next realm and 1206 00:47:36,210 --> 00:47:34,120 the reincarnation cases of children you 1207 00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:36,220 know we're really beg that question I 1208 00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:37,480 mean that's why I open the book with 1209 00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:38,800 those cases 1210 00:47:42,870 --> 00:47:41,110 they really ask the question because it 1211 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:42,880 seems as if that's what's happened with 1212 00:47:48,990 --> 00:47:45,610 these children that personal elements of 1213 00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:49,000 that previous life have survived and arc 1214 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:50,800 are in their awareness of very young 1215 00:47:56,970 --> 00:47:54,010 ages no I get your point in and it's a 1216 00:47:58,590 --> 00:47:56,980 good one I just think I relate also to 1217 00:48:01,860 --> 00:47:58,600 the first way that you answered that 1218 00:48:06,110 --> 00:48:01,870 which is there's no limit to the number 1219 00:48:09,780 --> 00:48:06,120 of questions that that this directly 1220 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:09,790 brings to the forefront you know so like 1221 00:48:16,130 --> 00:48:11,730 we don't know we don't know if that 1222 00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:16,140 personal survival is a prelude to 1223 00:48:21,570 --> 00:48:19,240 merging into the universal or you know 1224 00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:21,580 we just well there's just no limit once 1225 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:25,150 we go there to you know the questions we 1226 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:26,890 might ask but we have to go there and I 1227 00:48:31,530 --> 00:48:28,570 think that's what you're obviously 1228 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:31,540 trying to do with the book I would agree 1229 00:48:35,610 --> 00:48:33,370 yeah I mean to me what's partly 1230 00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:35,620 fascinating about it is the sense of 1231 00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:37,510 wonder the sense of mystery that it 1232 00:48:43,890 --> 00:48:40,180 generates to have to to come up against 1233 00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:43,900 with these these very strong cases and 1234 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:48,250 and experiences and data about the world 1235 00:48:52,110 --> 00:48:50,530 the real world that and it shows that 1236 00:48:54,450 --> 00:48:52,120 there's so much we don't understand 1237 00:48:56,550 --> 00:48:54,460 about the physical world there are 1238 00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:56,560 forces in operation here that we can't 1239 00:49:01,530 --> 00:48:58,480 explain and that science can't explain 1240 00:49:04,530 --> 00:49:01,540 and I like the fact that it opens up a 1241 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:04,540 door to sort of the mystery of the world 1242 00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:06,910 around us and we'll never be able to I 1243 00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:09,160 assume answer a lot of the questions 1244 00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:12,880 that are raised but to meet us that's 1245 00:49:17,970 --> 00:49:14,680 part of the what I wouldn't reach me 1246 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:17,980 about it actually yeah yeah yeah no so 1247 00:49:23,340 --> 00:49:21,970 with your UFO book you not only kind of 1248 00:49:27,330 --> 00:49:23,350 you know just write the book kind of sit 1249 00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:27,340 back go hey you became quite a quite an 1250 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:29,440 advocate and not just an advocate but 1251 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:32,850 you really were out there in terms of 1252 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:35,410 advancing this issue do you see the same 1253 00:49:40,740 --> 00:49:37,770 thing happening with surviving death 1254 00:49:43,770 --> 00:49:40,750 it's a good question Alex I mean I don't 1255 00:49:45,630 --> 00:49:43,780 feel that I have this you know I don't 1256 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:45,640 feel as much of an authority on this to 1257 00:49:50,550 --> 00:49:48,310 tell you the truth as I do on UFOs I 1258 00:49:52,529 --> 00:49:50,560 mean I really I spent eleven years on 1259 00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:52,539 the UFO topic and I 1260 00:49:56,999 --> 00:49:54,400 in that book that I really brought 1261 00:49:58,529 --> 00:49:57,009 forward all there is to say about it as 1262 00:50:00,900 --> 00:49:58,539 far as I'm concerned I could never 1263 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:00,910 imagine it was sort of like the 1264 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:03,910 finishing the end of that journey for me 1265 00:50:08,249 --> 00:50:06,249 you know and I can't imagine ever doing 1266 00:50:10,319 --> 00:50:08,259 another book on it or having a whole lot 1267 00:50:12,779 --> 00:50:10,329 more to say other than advocating for 1268 00:50:14,130 --> 00:50:12,789 change in terms of attitudes and in 1269 00:50:16,979 --> 00:50:14,140 terms of government and things like that 1270 00:50:21,029 --> 00:50:16,989 but with this it feels much more 1271 00:50:23,249 --> 00:50:21,039 open-ended to me and whether I'm you 1272 00:50:24,959 --> 00:50:23,259 know I don't feel like I'm I'm some kind 1273 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:24,969 of an expert or authority on this 1274 00:50:28,769 --> 00:50:26,410 information I think my unique 1275 00:50:30,839 --> 00:50:28,779 contribution here is applying 1276 00:50:33,659 --> 00:50:30,849 journalistic standards to it you know 1277 00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:33,669 real trying to be very objective and and 1278 00:50:39,419 --> 00:50:37,119 and seeing how it all holds together and 1279 00:50:41,459 --> 00:50:39,429 maybe you know being able to be a voice 1280 00:50:43,799 --> 00:50:41,469 for getting it bringing more credibility 1281 00:50:45,329 --> 00:50:43,809 to this topic I mean that's and and the 1282 00:50:47,549 --> 00:50:45,339 other point the reach you know the real 1283 00:50:49,650 --> 00:50:47,559 reason I wrote this book is to bring 1284 00:50:52,349 --> 00:50:49,660 this material into the mainstream I'm 1285 00:50:54,479 --> 00:50:52,359 sort of like a vehicle for taking 1286 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:54,489 material that's scattered all over the 1287 00:51:00,329 --> 00:50:56,890 place and it's been sort of marginalized 1288 00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:00,339 by our culture taking it into a book 1289 00:51:04,049 --> 00:51:02,169 that can bring credibility to it that 1290 00:51:06,959 --> 00:51:04,059 shows that it's valid that shows that 1291 00:51:10,649 --> 00:51:06,969 it's serious and then handing that out 1292 00:51:12,419 --> 00:51:10,659 to the to the mainstream world which to 1293 00:51:14,459 --> 00:51:12,429 people who have never been exposed to it 1294 00:51:16,469 --> 00:51:14,469 before I mean that's by having a big 1295 00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:16,479 publisher like I do a very well 1296 00:51:20,819 --> 00:51:18,880 established publisher they have it you 1297 00:51:24,179 --> 00:51:20,829 know these people that really help get 1298 00:51:27,299 --> 00:51:24,189 it out and so my job is I as I did for 1299 00:51:29,189 --> 00:51:27,309 UFOs my goal is to take material that 1300 00:51:30,749 --> 00:51:29,199 needs to have more credibility and 1301 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:30,759 recognition to it that can change 1302 00:51:35,909 --> 00:51:33,249 people's lives and putting it into a 1303 00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:35,919 form that is accessible to an 1304 00:51:40,289 --> 00:51:37,839 intelligent and curious person who has 1305 00:51:41,899 --> 00:51:40,299 not encountered this material before so 1306 00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:41,909 the books are really written for people 1307 00:51:47,849 --> 00:51:45,849 who this is new for and with with the 1308 00:51:49,559 --> 00:51:47,859 special approach that I have to offer so 1309 00:51:51,899 --> 00:51:49,569 that's sort of how I see my role in all 1310 00:51:53,939 --> 00:51:51,909 of this I hope that makes sense well 1311 00:51:55,859 --> 00:51:53,949 totally and you know the other thing 1312 00:51:57,749 --> 00:51:55,869 that hints at of course is that you know 1313 00:51:59,489 --> 00:51:57,759 maybe your journey isn't over on this 1314 00:52:01,140 --> 00:51:59,499 one like you you you kind of close the 1315 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:01,150 door on the UFO and say my journeys kind 1316 00:52:05,850 --> 00:52:03,130 of over on this one you're saying hey 1317 00:52:07,470 --> 00:52:05,860 maybe my journey isn't over so that 1318 00:52:08,970 --> 00:52:07,480 it's not I feel like it's just beginning 1319 00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:08,980 to tell you the truth it's so much more 1320 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:10,480 I want to learn you know I have stacks 1321 00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:12,610 of books on my desk that I want to read 1322 00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:15,310 that I haven't had time to read yet and 1323 00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:17,320 I want to be in dialogue with people I 1324 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:19,180 you know I have a my website up and I'm 1325 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:21,010 setting up these sections of my website 1326 00:52:26,970 --> 00:52:24,130 for research papers and for to it to 1327 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:26,980 post actual additional information that 1328 00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:29,530 I couldn't include in the book or papers 1329 00:52:34,110 --> 00:52:31,180 that relate to things that I've covered 1330 00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:34,120 in the book so I also want my website to 1331 00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:35,860 be a real vehicle for people to learn 1332 00:52:40,410 --> 00:52:37,680 more and that'll include my own 1333 00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:40,420 explorations as I discover things new 1334 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:42,880 things that might relate to something I 1335 00:52:45,930 --> 00:52:44,410 wrote in this book but that I hadn't 1336 00:52:47,940 --> 00:52:45,940 discovered yet I want to make that 1337 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:47,950 available to people so I see this as 1338 00:52:52,530 --> 00:52:50,290 sort of an ongoing process absolutely 1339 00:52:54,540 --> 00:52:52,540 and I'll be the first to say I have a 1340 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:54,550 lot more to learn about it and who knows 1341 00:52:59,070 --> 00:52:56,290 maybe it'll be another book down the 1342 00:53:02,490 --> 00:52:59,080 road but it's a journey that has just 1343 00:53:04,170 --> 00:53:02,500 begun essentially for me great great and 1344 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:04,180 we'll be sure to link up to that website 1345 00:53:08,670 --> 00:53:06,250 but maybe you can tell folks what the 1346 00:53:10,740 --> 00:53:08,680 URL is the website is the name of the 1347 00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:10,750 book surviving death and then it has my 1348 00:53:16,220 --> 00:53:12,760 last name attached to it which is spelt 1349 00:53:18,690 --> 00:53:16,230 ke a n so it's surviving death cane 1350 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:18,700 dot-com and then I also have a very 1351 00:53:23,850 --> 00:53:21,010 active Facebook page and I I loved 1352 00:53:26,370 --> 00:53:23,860 discussing this stuff with readers and 1353 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:26,380 and taking questions and having come you 1354 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:28,150 know their comments and having dialogues 1355 00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:30,490 with people so I really welcome people's 1356 00:53:36,750 --> 00:53:34,390 participation awesome well it's been so 1357 00:53:38,250 --> 00:53:36,760 great learning about this and just 1358 00:53:40,530 --> 00:53:38,260 something that people are going to want 1359 00:53:43,050 --> 00:53:40,540 to check check out I have to add that I 1360 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:43,060 appreciate the humility you have with 1361 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:45,370 the book but I found a lot of good stuff 1362 00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:47,050 in there I'm looking at this for a long 1363 00:53:52,050 --> 00:53:49,720 time I found a lot of new stuff and or 1364 00:53:55,530 --> 00:53:52,060 just stuff that was slightly different 1365 00:53:57,510 --> 00:53:55,540 that made me think in a new way so if 1366 00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:57,520 you're you know even for people who are 1367 00:54:01,350 --> 00:53:58,960 well versed in this I think they'll find 1368 00:54:04,740 --> 00:54:01,360 a lot again the book is surviving death 1369 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:04,750 a journalist investigates evidence of an 1370 00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,170 afterlife and our guest has been Leslie 1371 00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:10,720 Kane Leslie thanks again so much for 1372 00:54:14,340 --> 00:54:12,640 joining me thank you Alice it's been 1373 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:14,350 really great talking to you appreciate 1374 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:15,690 it very much 1375 00:54:19,089 --> 00:54:18,010 thanks again Oh Leslie came for joining 1376 00:54:21,099 --> 00:54:19,099 me today on skeptical 1377 00:54:24,339 --> 00:54:21,109 I guess I'd have one question to tee up 1378 00:54:26,829 --> 00:54:24,349 from this interview and that is do you 1379 00:54:28,870 --> 00:54:26,839 think this book will make a difference 1380 00:54:30,279 --> 00:54:28,880 that's how I kind of frame things up at 1381 00:54:32,380 --> 00:54:30,289 the beginning and I think that's still 1382 00:54:33,789 --> 00:54:32,390 the question I don't think there's a lot 1383 00:54:35,499 --> 00:54:33,799 of information in this book that 1384 00:54:38,170 --> 00:54:35,509 skeptical listeners will find 1385 00:54:39,729 --> 00:54:38,180 particularly startling although like I 1386 00:54:41,849 --> 00:54:39,739 said I think there's a lot of good stuff 1387 00:54:45,279 --> 00:54:41,859 in there and it's consolidated and 1388 00:54:48,729 --> 00:54:45,289 synthesized in a very cool way but the 1389 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:48,739 real question is will this energize more 1390 00:54:52,479 --> 00:54:50,690 people bring them to a point where they 1391 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:52,489 say hey I really have to dig into this 1392 00:54:56,620 --> 00:54:53,930 stuff even though I've kind of never 1393 00:54:59,140 --> 00:54:56,630 really looked at it could this book be 1394 00:55:01,420 --> 00:54:59,150 that tipping point for a lot of people 1395 00:55:02,890 --> 00:55:01,430 so let me know your thoughts on that of 1396 00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:02,900 course a place to do it is through the 1397 00:55:09,460 --> 00:55:07,190 sceptical website at sk EPT iko while 1398 00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:09,470 you're there you can grab any of the 300 1399 00:55:13,870 --> 00:55:12,319 and almost 50 shows that we've done and 1400 00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:13,880 they're all up there for free and you 1401 00:55:17,140 --> 00:55:15,440 can download them and do whatever you 1402 00:55:18,969 --> 00:55:17,150 like with them and if you want to join 1403 00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:18,979 in the conversation you can do that too 1404 00:55:23,019 --> 00:55:20,569 you joined the skeptical forum or you 1405 00:55:26,229 --> 00:55:23,029 can leave me a comment or connect in any 1406 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:26,239 way you see fit so I'm going a little 1407 00:55:29,349 --> 00:55:27,650 bit out of sequence here so this 1408 00:55:31,089 --> 00:55:29,359 interview is actually recorded just a 1409 00:55:33,009 --> 00:55:31,099 little bit ago and then I have some 1410 00:55:34,809 --> 00:55:33,019 other ones that are really good that I'm 1411 00:55:36,670 --> 00:55:34,819 gonna get out every week here for a 1412 00:55:38,319 --> 00:55:36,680 while because these interviews pile up I 1413 00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:38,329 keep wanting to do is show every two 1414 00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:40,880 weeks so I can have kind of a normal 1415 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:44,089 life but then I just love doing these 1416 00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:45,410 interviews and there's so many cool 1417 00:55:49,930 --> 00:55:48,799 people to talk to that I wind up doing a 1418 00:55:51,999 --> 00:55:49,940 lot of interviews and then I have to get 1419 00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:52,009 them all out that's the case that we're 1420 00:55:57,370 --> 00:55:55,729 at now so just stay tuned every week for 1421 00:55:59,289 --> 00:55:57,380 a while and then every two weeks for a 1422 00:56:01,299 --> 00:55:59,299 while however it turns out to be I'm 1423 00:56:04,329 --> 00:56:01,309 just glad that you're here and joining 1424 00:56:07,690 --> 00:56:04,339 me in and hopefully enjoying this cool 1425 00:56:09,969 --> 00:56:07,700 journey of discovery that run so that's 1426 00:56:10,930 --> 00:56:09,979 it until next time take care and bye for